Curse

Dzan · Aug 08, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

A lot of the problem with the metagame, and will continue to be a problem, is that there is only one truely universally viable monk build. I don't count Blessed Light because "only really good monks can run it with any success" as someone else put it.

Until there are a couple sub 1 second casting time non-elite Healing Prayers spells, the fact that everyone runs the same backline will dictate how people run their offense.

JR · Aug 08, 2006, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

A lot of the problem with the metagame, and will continue to be a problem, is that there is only one truely universally viable monk build. I don't count Blessed Light because "only really good monks can run it with any success" as someone else put it.

The metagame generally takes into account the good players and not the bad ones, as such I wouldn't say that is a sensible reason to nto include it at all. Blessed Light is a big part of the current metagame, and only becoming more popular as people get to grips with using it.

However, you are right in that the list of viable Monk builds is very limited; Boon Prot and Blessed Light, basicly. There are of course people who have experimented with other things (such as Stepn's Empathic Monk), but they are generally pretty limited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Until there are a couple sub 1 second casting time non-elite Healing Prayers spells, the fact that everyone runs the same backline will dictate how people run their offense.

Something needs to be done to Healing Prayers, but I'm not quite sure what. I wouldn't say speeding up the cast times was the answer, as I feel it is ok for that to be the forte of the Boon Prot. Healing Prayers should counter that with quite simply bulkier heals I think. Buffing the 5e heals such as Orison would be a good place to start, just upping their effect by 15~ points or so. The Elites are generally solid, with Word being probably the most common elite to run a Healing Monk at the moment.

Do that, and I think you could put a whole lot more variety in backlines. However, people have been suggesting buffs to the small heals for a long time (namely Ensign), and well... We can just wait I suppose.

Greedy Gus · Aug 08, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Running a heavy hex build seems like jumping over your friend with a bike to me: always seems like a decent idea, but ends in disappointment and maybe someone crying.

We've been running a melandrus + cripshot + degen necro + 2 war build since season 1. Nowadays it's considered nearly standard metagame. Just last night we ran into shhh and DPS running hex builds and rolled past them. They just lack the oomph to get past any decent defense, and their own defense isn't watertight enough to outlast the other guy.

The most you can really afford is 2 hex characters, before you're going overboard with no way of finishing people or distracting heal parties that counter your degen easily. And even then, you have to put your defense on those hex chars because you need the other slots for wars and rangers, so you're reaching to the bottom of the barrel for outputting your evil genius mass hexes while still having team defenses and some sort of offense on those chars. Especially if you try to pull out the tricky elite hexes and then find yourself without the ability to spam your vanilla hexes without elite energy management.

glenn_rolfe · Aug 08, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

way back in season 1 we use to run a war, mel ranger, crip/poison ranger, mes, hex necro, 2 monks, e/mo - and it was at that time a really offensive build with the degen and decent spike on top.
But hex removal in GvG was poor back then so you could afford to spam about 5 hexes. But people started packing remove hex on the mes, converts, and now blessed light is here, so that little amount of hexes doesn't cut it anymore.

I really can't see 2 hex characters being effective unless you absolutely have mass condition spam on top. But with blessed light and heal party spams, and even emphatic removal on some sword wars, the more physical builds just seem like they're going to run through you.

Lena A · Aug 08, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

we use 7 hexes on 2 hex spammer chars +3 on the water ele(runner) without mass conditions and it s enough to add pressure on the opposite team (when i don't play with 0 in curses)

spamming hp => less blind => more pressure from warriors

Phelann · Aug 08, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

way back in season 1 we use to run a war, mel ranger, crip/poison ranger, mes, hex necro, 2 monks, e/mo - and it was at that time a really offensive build with the degen and decent spike on top.
But hex removal in GvG was poor back then so you could afford to spam about 5 hexes. But people started packing remove hex on the mes, converts, and now blessed light is here, so that little amount of hexes doesn't cut it anymore.

I really can't see 2 hex characters being effective unless you absolutely have mass condition spam on top. But with blessed light and heal party spams, and even emphatic removal on some sword wars, the more physical builds just seem like they're going to run through you.

then watch ci play

overclocked · Aug 08, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

ive seen the mo/a in gvg, used by some rank 100 guild beating a rank 40 guild.

Dzan · Aug 08, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The metagame generally takes into account the good players and not the bad ones, as such I wouldn't say that is a sensible reason to nto include it at all. Blessed Light is a big part of the current metagame, and only becoming more popular as people get to grips with using it.

I agree, I was being half-sarcastic when I said "only good monks can use it."

I think the lack of hexes in the metagame may infact be triggered by the rising amount of Blessed Light, since Blessed Light is a good counter for DoT Hexes.

That said, the more popular Blessed Light monks become, the more viable Surge/Burn mesmers will be.

Thom · Aug 09, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

When every team on the ladder was boon/prot happy, there was something fairly constant to scheme against. Now we basically have the booner and the "anti-booner" in a b-light monk which are being mixed and matched depending on need. While this is a boon to the healing meta-game, it puts a damper on "exploit the booner" strategies.

When the meta-game shifted spike heavy, teams went to intentional splits 4-4 to kill the spike. Perhaps the smart move here is an intentional move to the 6-2 split. The philosophy here is basically the same: force a team that plays strongest straight up into a drawn out movement game. An undiversified team has fewer response options to a 6-2, but has a natural 4-4 split. 6-2 is also more difficult to steamroll since it has a full backline. Obviously your top teams will provide an adaquate response fairly quickly, but this is always the way of things.

Phelann · Aug 09, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

That said, the more popular Blessed Light monks become, the more viable Surge/Burn mesmers will be.

yup

Trylo · Aug 09, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

personally,

an echo warder with glyph of renewal with ward against foes, ward against melee, ward against elements, ward of stability...

MAYBE even a peace and harmony earth build

lol my own fun build...

BUT with all the melee pressure and the enchantment hate... i think wards are the way to go, maybe even a ele/war or ele/par will make its appearance as a fill in for the rit

Vaga · Aug 09, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Running a spike build is definently viable in the current metagame. The power builds people are running don't split very well if at all. I'm not sure why only a few guilds run them.

Split squads, specifically a 5/3 split would work very well. I think the problem with this though is that whilst your win rate might be very high, your average match length is going to end up being a lot longer.

In regard to a 6/2 split suggested earlier, the problem with this split is that the two people in the base aren't going to be able to kill anything fast enough to make teams running steam roll builds do anything. If you are splitting 6/2 because you think you are going to get rolled at the stand, you are still going to get rolled at the stand. They don't have to send anyone back because they can have you turtled in your base with all your npcs dead in <5 minutes.

Everyones running high pressure builds, I'd be interested to see how IWAY holds up in GvG in the current metagame.

glenn_rolfe · Aug 09, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Everyones running high pressure builds, I'd be interested to see how IWAY holds up in GvG in the current metagame.

seeing tainted necros and warriors (well bunny thumpers) training monks together makes the current metagame feel like IWAY anyway.

BooNer · Aug 09, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

it really isnt hard.. my guild decided one night that our rank in the 800's looked really bad when we tombed so we decided to go on a gvg run that night. so, we pulled together a simple build in 10 minutes and were able to go on a 6 win streak, 3 matches running thumpers, 2 being top 100 guilds (one flawless vs top 100 thumper team :P). all we used against it was blurred vision, 1 antiwar necro, and 2 warriors constantly dropping pets to dp them. all you have to do vs these high melee builds is just cope with the pressure for a couple minutes so your antiwarrior / pet can set in on them and they begin to hurt cuz of their lack of defensive characters.

well.. my point is that this high dmg melee junk is really not hard to beat.. my guild doesnt even gvg and can beat that stuff so just run simple counters, play smart, and have fun

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 09, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

In regard to a 6/2 split suggested earlier, the problem with this split is that the two people in the base aren't going to be able to kill anything fast enough to make teams running steam roll builds do anything. If you are splitting 6/2 because you think you are going to get rolled at the stand, you are still going to get rolled at the stand. They don't have to send anyone back because they can have you turtled in your base with all your npcs dead in <5 minutes.

Depends on the split, but I've found this usually isn't the case, even with a steamrolling build. Oftentimes the flagstand team has a lot of defenses which are tough to pressure through. Likewise, most 6-2 splits can drop the bodyguards and endanger the guild lord, especially if an assassin is involved. It's by no means a surefire win to try to steamroll this sort of team at the flagstand, move into their base, steamroll them as they turtle (very very difficult) and kill their guild lord through the damage cap, all before their 2-man split can drop your guild lord completely unhindered.

That said, a lot of these pressure builds do have at least a couple characters who can go deal with a split. Cripshot rangers, smiting monks, and just plain old mass warriors are all popular right now. It only gets tricky if the team of 6 at the flagstand is really offensive instead of defensive, in which case you have to pick and choose what you send back so your monks don't run out of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooNer

it really isnt hard.. my guild decided one night that our rank in the 800's looked really bad when we tombed so we decided to go on a gvg run that night. so, we pulled together a simple build in 10 minutes and were able to go on a 6 win streak, 3 matches running thumpers, 2 being top 100 guilds (one flawless vs top 100 thumper team :P). all we used against it was blurred vision, 1 antiwar necro, and 2 warriors constantly dropping pets to dp them. all you have to do vs these high melee builds is just cope with the pressure for a couple minutes so your antiwarrior / pet can set in on them and they begin to hurt cuz of their lack of defensive characters.

Depends very much on who you face. When we fought iQ on their Thumpway build we tried to DP the pets and target the thumpers, and it turned out to be a very bad idea because it allowed the death necro to go nuts. Between Putrids and Death Novas, the AoE damage was insane. Their monks and other softies also pushed up into our midline, which forced our warriors back if they wanted to do any damage. As a result, our entire team was in range of the AoE. It was a smart play and an extremely well-played build that would be hard to beat with just a couple warrior counters.

Shaznat · Aug 09, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

^Squidget beat me to it. He pointed out that at the higher levels, it is much harder to cope with a good melee based team^

No offense, but you probably weren't playing any high level teams. At the low levels of the ladder, the metagame doesn't mean nearly as much. Once you get to the better teams though, the pressure becomes much harder to handle due to the skill of the warriors/thumpers. Without a good amount of counters (wards, aegis, 1 or 2 copies of b. flash) you will get trounced.

As for my take on the metagame shift, I would like to see it shift towards condition-based pressure with built in spikes. Some prevalent builds would be cripshot/melandrus, virulence warriors, and even fevered dreams/frag mesmers. With all the pressure from burning, poison, disease, and bleeding, the current backlines might crumble since they are usually composed of about 3-4 condition removals. i think that if the metagame did became condition heavy, it wouldn't last long because there are so many counters that can be fixed into builds like empathic warriors and extinguish eles, which, at the moment, aren't all that common. This means the meta probably won't be condition based, I'd just like to see it.

Shortyafter · Aug 09, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I don't see the metagame switching to much until Nightfall, mainly because warriors (and thumpers I guess) are the most effective ways to deal damage. Also, who doesn't like quick battles? Even if the metagame shifts slightly to something like Ci's build, it's still 3 warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

Everyones running high pressure builds, I'd be interested to see how IWAY holds up in GvG in the current metagame.

Not good, because there won't be any Blindbots, Aegises, or real forms of prot/healing on an IWAY team. The 2-necro backline will get massacred very quickly vs. a warrior/thumper build.

Parkerbsb · Aug 10, 2006, 07:27 PM // 19:27

For the record - we've been trying dual sin and a warrior and smite monk split (yes I've been thinking 6/2 for awhile now too). Truthfully the dual sins can clear a base faster, but the war/monk setup are alot more versatile and can help out 8v8 a lot better.

Not to mention that they can crush the GL alot faster than dual sins can.

I'm still toying around with the 6 "defensive" spikers tho because I've never been a fan of HoH and that holding feel bothers me

Wrane Latrobe · Aug 10, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

The problem with the thumpers is they need the draw to keep the blind/crippled off, for that reason and the blessed light monk becoming more common we swapped the mel arrow ranger to a defensive trapper. If you are having thumper trouble try a dust trap - park the monks in it. It will overwhelm the draw. Most thumpers get tunnel vision when they see the monk and have poor target selection.

twicky_kid · Aug 11, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

I think its going to stay this way until Nightfalls. The dervish should smash this type of game play into the ground.

I killed more melee classes during the weekend then I did casters.

If its not a melee heavy build its got a crip shot and a tain necro. The paragon is going to smash that kind of build as well. Its condition removal is so nasty.

Kind of given up on GvG for a while because of this meta game. Melee + KD = GG. Nothing can stand up to it. If the thumpers keep being ran ward of stability will destroy 2 of these 3 attack skills.